Hmm......after a few pints, i'm just going to blame all this non-sense on
the global economy and other international dilemmas.......whose for it!

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 8:29 PM, Monroe Eskew < monroe.eskew@... > wrote:

> I'm not trying to be rude; I just don't see an upgrade of the Doepfer
> oscillators to be necessary or worth it. I'm not against sine waves;
> they're great. But there are a few things I don't understand. I'm
> just curious...
>
> 1. Why doesn't a filter count as a "nonlinear wave shaper"
> 2. Why isn't using self oscillation on a filter such as the A121
> sufficient for your purposes This produces a natural sine wave,
> right The A121 has excellent keyboard tracking IMHO.
> 3. If additive synthesis is the game, why prefer analog over digital
>
> Cheers,
> Monroe
>
>
> On Dec 2, 2008, at 5:10 PM, laryn91 wrote:
>
> > No, it's NOT a filter at all. It a non-linear wave shaper.
> >
> > What I don't get is why are some so passionately *against* sine
> > waves I must violating
> > some unwritten analog commandment here but can't figure out what it
> > is. After all, most
> > vintage modular VCOs had clean sines - what's wrong with that
> >
> > All I asked was which VCO generated undistorted sines and got lots
> > of rude replies and
> > insults. My favorite is the very angry guy below who is pushing I
> > get banned from this
> > group! Yikes...
> >
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't get it... If the upgrade just filters the triangle in a
> > better
> > > way, then an LPF should do the same work. If your real concern is
> > > additive synthesis, then perhaps you should get the digital RS370,
> > or
> > > a computer program. Or perhaps use self-oscillation on a filter that
> > > has good tracking
> > >
> > >
> > > On Dec 2, 2008, at 4:13 PM, laryn91 wrote:
> > >
> > > > I wouldn't send mine back to Germany either.
> > > >
> > > > But I would buy upgrade boards and wire them in for all my Doepfer
> > > > oscillators (110, 111,
> > > > 145, etc.)
> > > >
> > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Bakis Sirros
> > > > <synth_freak_2000@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ok, i could do that poll.
> > > > > Dieter, any more specific details for the poll
> > > > >
> > > > > btw, in case there was a modified Sine circuit for the A111
> > > > produced, i would be
> > > > probably not bothered to send my 8 A111's back to doepfer to be
> > > > 'converted' with the new
> > > > sine design... it would be much trouble and time lost, for me...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist
> > > > > 1 group owner
> > > > > www. parallel - worlds - music. com
> > > > > www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic
> > > > > www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic
> > > > > www. myspace. com/ memorygeist
> > > > > www. DiN. org. uk
> > > > > www. musicamaximamagnetica. com
> > > > > www. shimarecords. co. uk
> > > > > www. rubberrecords. gr
> > > > > Athens - Greece
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Wed, 12/3/08, york luethje <ybl@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > From: york luethje <ybl@>
> > > > > Subject: Re: 1 Re: Sine wave discussion - Poll
> > > > suggestion
> > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com <Doepfer_a100%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 12:52 AM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Couldn't we just have a poll My suspicion is that the practical
> > > > value of very good
> > > > analogue sine waves will be high for only some. As Dieter
> > posted, an
> > > > earlier discussion
> > > > then fizzled out and didn't result in any product modifications.
> > > > Maybe the discussion has
> > > > shown there there is indeed a lot of (commercially tangible)
> > > > interest in an oscillator with a
> > > > very good sine output. On the other hand, maybe the interest is
> > more
> > > > intellectual and
> > > > doesn't incite people to actually part with their money and buy
> > the
> > > > new design. A poll
> > > > could give us at least an indication. I suggest something like
> > this
> > > > >
> > > > > "Do you want Doepfer to modify the sine-converter in the A-111
> > to
> > > > produce a purer
> > > > sine wave The cost increase would be in the 5% - 10% range."
> > > > >
> > > > > York
> > > > >
> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > From: Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@ gmail.com>
> > > > > To: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 3:39:52 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: 1 Re: Sine wave discussion
> > > > >
> > > > > Couldn't we just use a standard LPF for this
> > > > >
> > > > > On Dec 2, 2008, at 11:46 AM, James Husted wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > The part of this circuit that does the conversion seems pretty
> > > > > > straight ahead and looks simple enough to make as a stan-alone
> > > > module.
> > > > > > If one was needing to make sines and had a triangle VCO
> > already
> > > > (that
> > > > > > made a decent Triangle wave) then a converter module would
> > work
> > > > fine -
> > > > > > a bit esoteric for mass production though.
> > > > > > -James
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PS - sorry to all for starting this thread with my Z3000
> > post. I
> > > > had
> > > > > > my questions answered a long time ago..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Dec 2, 2008, at 10:38 AM, laryn91 wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sorry, I missed the "will" part :-p
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I had this link to the Aries VCO in one of the posts on this
> > > > > > > (endless) thread. This is an
> > > > > > > excellent tri-to-sine converter (I can't hear any additional
> > > > > > > overtones). Better than the more
> > > > > > > common 3080 converter and significantly better than your
> > diode
> > > > > > > converter. Aries claimed
> > > > > > > to produce <1% THD.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.leinerme dia.net/aries/ AriesSchematics/
> > AR-317s.gif
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm not sure why you found adding a slightly filtered
> > triangle
> > > > > > > sounding wave useful when
> > > > > > > there's already a triangle wave output. My suggestion is
> > if your
> > > > > > > customers are not
> > > > > > > interested in a clean Sine output, use the panel real
> > estate for
> > > > > > > something more useful.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, <yahoo@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You find my answers written inline.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Best wishes
> > > > > > > > Dieter Doepfer
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht--- --
> > > > > > > > > Von: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > > [mailto:Doepfer_ a100@ yahoogroups. com]Im Auftrag von
> > > > laryn91
> > > > > > > > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2008 17:20
> > > > > > > > > An: Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > > Betreff: 1 Re: Sine wave discussion
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And we will point out in the module information and
> > user's
> > > > > > > guide of
> > > > > > > > A-110
> > > > > > > > > > and A-111 that the sine outputs should be called more
> > > > > > precisely
> > > > > > > > "sine-like".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dieter,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It's probably just me, but where do you point that out
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > > A-111
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I wrote that "we will", not that "we did". That's the
> > future
> > > > tense
> > > > > > > from what
> > > > > > > > I learned in scool - but I'm not a native speaker.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >If you want a perfect sine you need a VCO with a sine
> > core.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Instead of an impossible "perfect sine", how about
> > just a
> > > > sine
> > > > > > > with no
> > > > > > > > *audible* overtones
> > > > > > > > > (<1% THD) like Arp, Moog, Aries, Polyfusion, EML,etc.
> > used
> > > > to
> > > > > > > make That
> > > > > > > > would now
> > > > > > > > > make the A-111 useful for additive synthesis and FM.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > All you need to do is copy their simple but superior
> > > > > > > > > triangle-to- sine converter design. ;-)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Though I can't believe that they really reach <1% THD (but
> > > > indeed
> > > > > > > I never
> > > > > > > > measured it): do you (or anybody else in the group) know
> > the
> > > > > > > circuitry of
> > > > > > > > these converters. Are they made with diodes, OTAs or the
> > JFET
> > > > > > > circuit (these
> > > > > > > > are the three triangle-to- sine converter principles I
> > > > know). I
> > > > > > > don't have
> > > > > > > > the schematics of these VCOs.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We would have offered a VCO with a more perfect sine in
> > the
> > > > past.
> > > > > > > But it
> > > > > > > > took more than 12 years (the A-111 is available since
> > spring
> > > > 1996)
> > > > > > > until
> > > > > > > > someone complained about the poor sine. I'll see what we
> > can
> > > > do.
> > > > > > > Maybe we
> > > > > > > > offer a small tri-to-sine converter board for the A-111-1
> > > > that can
> > > > > > > be used
> > > > > > > > instead of the simple diode converter.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There was a similar discussion about 2 years ago (~
> > September
> > > > > > > 2006) and Tim
> > > > > > > > Stinchcombe suggested an improved sine wave converter
> > based
> > > > on the
> > > > > > > JFET
> > > > > > > > principle. We have built a prototype of this converter in
> > > > 2006 but
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > discussion fell asleep very soon and it seemed that
> > nobody was
> > > > > > > interested
> > > > > > > > anymore. We could dig this design and offer it as an
> > > > addendum to
> > > > > > > the A-111-1
> > > > > > > > or equip all new A-111-1 with this board. The additional
> > > > charges
> > > > > > > would be in
> > > > > > > > the 15 Euro range (about 10 electronical parts mounted
> > on a
> > > > small
> > > > > > > board).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Best wishes
> > > > > > > > Dieter Doepfer
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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